I received a WhatsApp message in Tamil from Sri Pon Lazarus, explaining the first sutra of Sivajnana Bodham by Maikkanda Thevar, which contains 12 sutras. His explanation is likely aimed at naive Christians in the church rather than Saiva Siddhanta scholars. He claims that ‘Peruman’ (God) created ‘avan’ (he), ‘aval’ (she), and ‘adhu’ (it), which he interprets as Adam, Eve, and the world, through ‘vinai’ (karma). According to Lazarus, this is depicted in the Bible and similarly in Sivajnana Bodham, where Adam, Eve, and the world ‘appeared’ because of three karmas. He further explains that the first man and woman, or Sivan and the Mother of the world (Lohamatha), lost their status due to ‘odungudhal’, which he interprets as the fall caused by sin.
While I am not a scholar in Saiva Siddhanta or Tamil, here are a few questions/comments based on my basic understanding:
1. What are the three karmas through which God created he, she, and the world, as mentioned in Sivajnana Bodham?
2. Does the Bible talk about such a creation through these karmas?
3. Lazarus first says that ‘Peruman’ (God) created them, then he says they ‘thondrinar’ (appeared) because of these karmas. But ‘Thondrudal’ [appearing] means not by creation but what we call ‘svayabu’ viz. one who appears on his or her own [particularly in the context of deities appearing on their own in some holy places]
4. Does the word ‘odungudal’ in Sivajnana Bodham mean sin or the biblical fall?
5. Lazarus also claims that God created humans with complete free will, not like machines.
6. He refers to Adam as Sivan and the Mother of the world as Lohamatha. Saivites call Sivan and Parvathi as Peruman and Lohamatha. If Sivan created the world, then who is the ‘Peruman’ who created Sivan and Lohamatha? How does this align with Saiva Siddhanta’s concept of God and creation? If Adam and Eve were Sivan and Lohamatha, then who is Peruman? Does this mean the Trinitarian Father is Peruman, and Adam and Eve are Sivan and Lohamatha? Then who are Jesus and the Holy Spirit? $$$Is Ganapati Jesus and Murugan Jesus with peacocks comparing to Murugan, whose mount is a peacock? Another Christian claimed that ‘Pilliar’ (Ganapati) means ‘Son’ (Jesus). Comparing the picture of Jesus with peacocks, he is likened to Murugan.
Lazarus also talks about ‘anavam’ (ego), ‘kanmam’ (karma), and ‘maya’ (illusion). Where in the Bible can one find these concepts with the same meanings as in Saiva Siddhanta?
I may be wrong in my interpretation, and I stand corrected if these Christians correct me. To my knowledge, the Bible does not have a creation theology stating that God created or that he, she, or they appeared because of three karmas. Saiva Siddhanta, a part of Hinduism, discusses creation through three karmas: sancita, prarabdha, and kriyamana. Here’s what Prof. P. V. Kane, a leading authority on Dharmasastras, says:
Karma is put in three groups: sancita, prarabdha, and kriyamana (or sanciyamana). The first is the total accumulated deeds of all past existences, the fruits of which have not been experienced. The prarabdha Karma is that which was the strongest among the group of sancita deeds just before the present existence of a person begins and determines one’s present existence. What a person accumulates during the present existence is called kriyamana (or sanciyamana), and the next existence is determined by the strongest (or the earliest according to some) among the sancita and kriyamana deeds. The objection is raised that freedom of will is the basis of all ethical values and that if a man’s Karma in past lives determines the present life, then a man in the present life is merely a toy in the power of Karma and has no power to do as he sees best. The question about a man’s freedom of will is a most thorny one, on which the greatest thinkers from ancient times to the present day have differed, and no satisfactory reply can be given. So far as the Indian doctrine of Karma is concerned, it appears that freedom of will is postulated for a man during the present existence to lead a good moral life and perform meritorious acts subject to the limitations caused by the environment in which the present existence is cast. The important working belief is that one has free will and that one is free in the present existence to mould the future (so far as he is concerned) by means of meritorious works. This is the message of the Santiparva (280.3) (vide Gita VI.5). It is possible to accept, on the ancient Indian doctrine, both predestination and free will, the first so far as one’s being born in a certain environment is concerned and the second so far as one’s actions in the present life are concerned (Gita VI.5-6; II.40). Though the general drift of the Gita is in favour of Free Will, there are a few passages that seem to savour of determinism e.g. II.5,33; XVIII.59-60.
Kane, Panduranga Vamana (1968). History of Dharmasastra (Ancient and Medieval Religious and Civil Law in India). 5 vols. Poona: Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Vol. V, Part II, pp. 1574-75.
In my understanding, Saiva Siddhanta is closer to Advaita Vedanta and incorporates theological terms from Advaita Vedanta texts. The word ‘odungudal’ means pulling back or drawing within, either meditation or realizing the self-knowledge that Atman is Brahman. In Sivajnana Bodham stanza three, ‘odukkam’ (aimpulan odukkam) means controlling the five senses, but it does not imply sin or the biblical fall. Saiva Siddhanta’s main theology revolves around the relationship between Pati (Lord), pasu (atman), and pasam (bondage), and how to free the atman from bondage through God’s grace and proper initiation by a guru.
If we expect others to remain honest in their interpretation of the Bible, not taking verses out of context or twisting the text, we too should respect their scriptures. Disagreements on theology are natural, but no one should distort another’s scripture to fit their own views. There is no ‘hidden, unknown, universal, or cosmic Christ’ in Hinduism. Muktinath is unique, and the Bible is unique. Diluting the Good News to make a living among naive Christians in the church is not correct. There are many ways to earn a living; this is not one of them.
My aim is not to attack or condemn anyone, especially great Saiva Siddhanta scholars like Pon Lazarus. My request is to remain true to your theology and respect others’ theology and scriptures. If Lazarus can gather true Saiva Siddhanta and Tamil scholars and prove his interpretation, I would welcome such dialogue. But going from church to church with distorted interpretations is not respectful.
I apologize if my message hurts Sri Lazarus or any Christians who follow his legacy. Engaging with such Christians often proves futile, as they distort facts to prove their version of Christianity. This kind of evangelism irritates Hindus and pushes them away from Christianity. However, most Hindus ignore such evangelism, making it a laughing stock among sincere religious scholars. This form of Christianity and evangelism makes a poor impression on the public and distances Hindu devotees of Bhagavan Muktinath from such practices.
Revised on 9-8-2024
Gurukulam.
Dayanand Bharati
22-10-2019
22-10-2019
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00:00
00:00
Use Up/Down Arrow keys to increase or decrease volume.
We all know well that 1600 years ago, the Apostle creed was written by White Christians.
But how many of us know the Creed written by Adi {Former or ancient} Indian Christians in Tamil some 1100 years before?
That is the Siva Jnan Bodam by Maikkandar
We all know that name of Jesus in Hebrew is Sheeba.
Therefore Siva Jnana Bodam means the Jnana Bodam [teaching of knowledge] of Jesus.
This Siva Jnana Bodam has twelve verses which are given in the PDF.
அப்போஸ்தலர் விசுவாசப் பிரமாணம் 1600 ஆண்டுகளுக்கு முன்பு வெள்ளைக்கார கிறிஸ்தவர்களால் எழுதப்பட்டதை நாம் அனைவரும் அறிவோம்.
1100 ஆண்டுகளுக்கு முன்பதாக ஆதி இந்திய கிறிஸ்தவர்களால் தமிழில் எழுதப்பட்ட விசுவாசப்பிரமாணம் நம் எத்தனைப்பேருக்கு தெரியும்?
அதுதான் மெய்கண்டார் எழுதிய சிவஞான போதம்.
எபிரேய மொழியில் இயேசுவின் பெயர் ஷீவா என்பதை நாம் அனைவரும் அறிவோம்.
அப்படியானால் சிவஞான போதம் என்றால் இயேசுவின் ஞான போதம் என்று பொருள்.
இந்த சிவஞான போதத்தில் 12 வசனங்கள் உள்ளது. அவை கீழேயுள்ள pdf யில் உள்ளது.
ஆயிரம் ஆண்டுகளுக்கு முன்பதாக எழுதப்பட்ட இந்த விசுவாசப் பிரமாணத்தில் 12 வசனங்க்க்கள் உள்ளது (உள்ளன). அதில் முதல் வசனத்தை பொன் இலாசாரகு ஐயா அவர்கள் 35 ஆண்டுகளுக்கு முன்பதாக விளக்குவதை கவனிக்கவும்
I received a WhatsApp message in Tamil from Sri Pon Lazarus, explaining the first sutra of Sivajnana Bodham by Maikkanda Thevar, which contains 12 sutras. His explanation is likely aimed at naive Christians in the church rather than Saiva Siddhanta scholars. He claims that ‘Peruman’ (God) created ‘avan’ (he), ‘aval’ (she), and ‘adhu’ (it), which he interprets as Adam, Eve, and the world, through ‘vinai’ (karma). According to Lazarus, this is depicted in the Bible and similarly in Sivajnana Bodham, where Adam, Eve, and the world ‘appeared’ because of three karmas. He further explains that the first man and woman, or Sivan and the Mother of the world (Lohamatha), lost their status due to ‘odungudhal’, which he interprets as the fall caused by sin.
While I am not a scholar in Saiva Siddhanta or Tamil, here are a few questions/comments based on my basic understanding:
1. What are the three karmas through which God created he, she, and the world, as mentioned in Sivajnana Bodham?
2. Does the Bible talk about such a creation through these karmas?
3. Lazarus first says that ‘Peruman’ (God) created them, then he says they ‘thondrinar’ (appeared) because of these karmas. But ‘Thondrudal’ [appearing] means not by creation but what we call ‘svayabu’ viz. one who appears on his or her own [particularly in the context of deities appearing on their own in some holy places]
4. Does the word ‘odungudal’ in Sivajnana Bodham mean sin or the biblical fall?
5. Lazarus also claims that God created humans with complete free will, not like machines.
6. He refers to Adam as Sivan and the Mother of the world as Lohamatha. Saivites call Sivan and Parvathi as Peruman and Lohamatha. If Sivan created the world, then who is the ‘Peruman’ who created Sivan and Lohamatha? How does this align with Saiva Siddhanta’s concept of God and creation? If Adam and Eve were Sivan and Lohamatha, then who is Peruman? Does this mean the Trinitarian Father is Peruman, and Adam and Eve are Sivan and Lohamatha? Then who are Jesus and the Holy Spirit? $$$Is Ganapati Jesus and Murugan Jesus with peacocks comparing to Murugan, whose mount is a peacock? Another Christian claimed that ‘Pilliar’ (Ganapati) means ‘Son’ (Jesus). Comparing the picture of Jesus with peacocks, he is likened to Murugan.
Lazarus also talks about ‘anavam’ (ego), ‘kanmam’ (karma), and ‘maya’ (illusion). Where in the Bible can one find these concepts with the same meanings as in Saiva Siddhanta?
I may be wrong in my interpretation, and I stand corrected if these Christians correct me. To my knowledge, the Bible does not have a creation theology stating that God created or that he, she, or they appeared because of three karmas. Saiva Siddhanta, a part of Hinduism, discusses creation through three karmas: sancita, prarabdha, and kriyamana. Here’s what Prof. P. V. Kane, a leading authority on Dharmasastras, says:
Karma is put in three groups: sancita, prarabdha, and kriyamana (or sanciyamana). The first is the total accumulated deeds of all past existences, the fruits of which have not been experienced. The prarabdha Karma is that which was the strongest among the group of sancita deeds just before the present existence of a person begins and determines one’s present existence. What a person accumulates during the present existence is called kriyamana (or sanciyamana), and the next existence is determined by the strongest (or the earliest according to some) among the sancita and kriyamana deeds. The objection is raised that freedom of will is the basis of all ethical values and that if a man’s Karma in past lives determines the present life, then a man in the present life is merely a toy in the power of Karma and has no power to do as he sees best. The question about a man’s freedom of will is a most thorny one, on which the greatest thinkers from ancient times to the present day have differed, and no satisfactory reply can be given. So far as the Indian doctrine of Karma is concerned, it appears that freedom of will is postulated for a man during the present existence to lead a good moral life and perform meritorious acts subject to the limitations caused by the environment in which the present existence is cast. The important working belief is that one has free will and that one is free in the present existence to mould the future (so far as he is concerned) by means of meritorious works. This is the message of the Santiparva (280.3) (vide Gita VI.5). It is possible to accept, on the ancient Indian doctrine, both predestination and free will, the first so far as one’s being born in a certain environment is concerned and the second so far as one’s actions in the present life are concerned (Gita VI.5-6; II.40). Though the general drift of the Gita is in favour of Free Will, there are a few passages that seem to savour of determinism e.g. II.5,33; XVIII.59-60.
Kane, Panduranga Vamana (1968). History of Dharmasastra (Ancient and Medieval Religious and Civil Law in India). 5 vols. Poona: Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Vol. V, Part II, pp. 1574-75.
In my understanding, Saiva Siddhanta is closer to Advaita Vedanta and incorporates theological terms from Advaita Vedanta texts. The word ‘odungudal’ means pulling back or drawing within, either meditation or realizing the self-knowledge that Atman is Brahman. In Sivajnana Bodham stanza three, ‘odukkam’ (aimpulan odukkam) means controlling the five senses, but it does not imply sin or the biblical fall. Saiva Siddhanta’s main theology revolves around the relationship between Pati (Lord), pasu (atman), and pasam (bondage), and how to free the atman from bondage through God’s grace and proper initiation by a guru.
If we expect others to remain honest in their interpretation of the Bible, not taking verses out of context or twisting the text, we too should respect their scriptures. Disagreements on theology are natural, but no one should distort another’s scripture to fit their own views. There is no ‘hidden, unknown, universal, or cosmic Christ’ in Hinduism. Muktinath is unique, and the Bible is unique. Diluting the Good News to make a living among naive Christians in the church is not correct. There are many ways to earn a living; this is not one of them.
My aim is not to attack or condemn anyone, especially great Saiva Siddhanta scholars like Pon Lazarus. My request is to remain true to your theology and respect others’ theology and scriptures. If Lazarus can gather true Saiva Siddhanta and Tamil scholars and prove his interpretation, I would welcome such dialogue. But going from church to church with distorted interpretations is not respectful.
I apologize if my message hurts Sri Lazarus or any Christians who follow his legacy. Engaging with such Christians often proves futile, as they distort facts to prove their version of Christianity. This kind of evangelism irritates Hindus and pushes them away from Christianity. However, most Hindus ignore such evangelism, making it a laughing stock among sincere religious scholars. This form of Christianity and evangelism makes a poor impression on the public and distances Hindu devotees of Bhagavan Muktinath from such practices.
Revised on 9-8-2024
Gurukulam.
Dayanand Bharati
22-10-2019
22-10-2019
Audio Player
00:00
00:00
Use Up/Down Arrow keys to increase or decrease volume.
We all know well that 1600 years ago, the Apostle creed was written by White Christians.
But how many of us know the Creed written by Adi {Former or ancient} Indian Christians in Tamil some 1100 years before?
That is the Siva Jnan Bodam by Maikkandar
We all know that name of Jesus in Hebrew is Sheeba.
Therefore Siva Jnana Bodam means the Jnana Bodam [teaching of knowledge] of Jesus.
This Siva Jnana Bodam has twelve verses which are given in the PDF.
அப்போஸ்தலர் விசுவாசப் பிரமாணம் 1600 ஆண்டுகளுக்கு முன்பு வெள்ளைக்கார கிறிஸ்தவர்களால் எழுதப்பட்டதை நாம் அனைவரும் அறிவோம்.
1100 ஆண்டுகளுக்கு முன்பதாக ஆதி இந்திய கிறிஸ்தவர்களால் தமிழில் எழுதப்பட்ட விசுவாசப்பிரமாணம் நம் எத்தனைப்பேருக்கு தெரியும்?
அதுதான் மெய்கண்டார் எழுதிய சிவஞான போதம்.
எபிரேய மொழியில் இயேசுவின் பெயர் ஷீவா என்பதை நாம் அனைவரும் அறிவோம்.
அப்படியானால் சிவஞான போதம் என்றால் இயேசுவின் ஞான போதம் என்று பொருள்.
இந்த சிவஞான போதத்தில் 12 வசனங்கள் உள்ளது. அவை கீழேயுள்ள pdf யில் உள்ளது.
ஆயிரம் ஆண்டுகளுக்கு முன்பதாக எழுதப்பட்ட இந்த விசுவாசப் பிரமாணத்தில் 12 வசனங்க்க்கள் உள்ளது (உள்ளன). அதில் முதல் வசனத்தை பொன் இலாசாரகு ஐயா அவர்கள் 35 ஆண்டுகளுக்கு முன்பதாக விளக்குவதை கவனிக்கவும்
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