Dear Ebe,
Long time before at Madurai some evangelicals put the poster: Jesus is the answer. Next day some others put a poster above it: What is your question.
So many times the evangelicals try to give answer to the question which people never ask. Your slogans in your car are similar type. Particularly your slogan: ‘The Blood of Jesus Christ cleanses you form all sins 1 john1 :7. John never wrote this verse keeping Hindus or unsaved people in his mind but to the believers. Once you displayed such theological words out of context at your car, you expect God to open others mind to understand his grace:
“Well it’s a good way to start telling about the love of Jesus Christ our saviour and Lord , I think. though God only can speak into the minds of people and lead them into His understanding and Grace
But this is not the good way to start telling about the love of Jesus Christ, particular the word like ‘blood’ is an abomination to the Hindus. Once you close their mind, don’t expect God to open their mind through your evangelical slogans.
Well it is your car and you can display anything you like, but in our Trust it is uniformly decided not to encourage any Christian to visit gurukulam with such slogans on their car. So though you can visit gurukulam, better don’t bring your car here. It is a collective decision and I too have to follow. So keep this in your mind NEVER BRING YOUR CAR HERE.
Db
Rest of Eby’s slogans are:
I have got three stickeree written at the back of the car now !!
NO Jesus , No Peace , know Jesus Know peace
The Blood of Jesus Christ cleanses you form all sins 1 john1 :7
and finally underlined with
Jesus loves you
@@@
Dear Swamiji,
Hope your trip is going on fine with your family members. When I came
from home in August we the travellers were discussing diversified issues.
And before half an hour of my arrival we started discussing about few
questions related to our soul, death etc. We three Sonal, Gopalan
Varadarajan and myself were contributing to that and agreed to correspond
through mail regarding the subject. The discussion has just started. Can
you help me to understand what Gopoalan has mentioned about sapth rish
mandalam and more on this?
Hi guys
I am extremely sorry for not answering the mail immediately. Here I am too busy with the Delhi Metro. The subjects about the soul is very interesting for me.
To start with my feeling or faith or what soever, after the death, the soul will leave from earth and will go to another world. With my limited knowledge that world lies near the W star (also called as sapth rish mandalam, which is very close to the north star). While I was doing some amature study on alpha century, acidently, I have come acros the W stars. In reality these stars looks like in the shape of W. So it is called W star. I got some books on these W stars (from NASA) and also Vishnu puranam, both says some this about North star and W stars. After reading these two books throughly I will get
some more ideas about where our soul will go next from this world.
As this subject is too interesting and very difficult to resolve I hope our conversation will go long and we need lot of patience to discuss. I welcome all you views on this.
with warm regards
GV (Gopalan Varadarajan)
PS: Some time I will take even one week to ten day to answer the mails. It is not to show that I am very busy or something. But I am habitual for this kind. Thanks in advance.
– “Elan Seralathan. K” <elan@iitk.ac.in> wrote:
Hello friends,
It’s been a long gap by now. I think all of us are busy. I do not where to start. Our discussion started and revolving around how one would attain Mukthi?, What is hope in life? and What would happen to us when we die? Mr.Gopalan was started telling his views about these and Sonal was saying that he does not believe any such thing, however he was willing to know if there is anything related to science. Shall we start discussing at this point? Will you both share your views on these matters?
Elan.
How come there are somany 3.3 million idols. Where did all started here in our land? Is there any connection between Isrealites started worshipping idols and here? And now I heard people, particularly RSS friends say that the lowest form of serving God is idol worship.
Dear Elan, Mathigiri, December 3, 2004.
Shanti!
Sorry for the delay in giving response to your questions. Due to lack of time I cannot give many other references to several points below. My response is very limited to the extend of giving only a elementary level of information for your questions. If you need to get more scholarly level information, then you have to read few books, which I can give if you are interested.
First about ‘Sapta rishi mandalam’. What Gopalan says about ‘Sapta rishi mandalam’ as W star is doubtful. However as he refers both NASA book and Vishnu Purana you have to get the references also. As far as my knowledge goes Sapta rishi mandalam is called plough star with seven stars. But I am not sure whether Vishunu Purana clearly says that souls are going to this star or not. I never read this Purana.
Regarding forming any doctrine or opinion based on Puranas is a difficult task. First of Puranas are sectarian and they are more like a mythology than clear scriptures (Prod. Kane compares them with modern fictions which people read for entertainment). Of course popular Hindu’s believes and most of the religious practices are based more on Puranas. However the theoretical view about the departed soul is that there are two paths in which the departed soul goes: devayana and pitruyana.1 Devayana (deva + ayana) is called the path of God and pitruyana (pitru + ayana) is called the path of ancestors. 2 Devayana is an auspicious period of six month when the Sun is in its Northern hemisphere (mid January to mid July) and pirturyana an unauspicious period of six month (mid July to mid January) when the Sun is in Southern hemisphere. Those who die during the time of devayana will go to the world of gods and from their will make progress and will finally reach the world of Brahma (or Hiranyagarbha) and the will be emancipated to mukti. (That’s why Bishmacharya waited on the bed of arrow after the Mahabharata war to die during the devayana). Those who die during the time of pitruyana will go the world of ancestors (only after proper final rites and sradha is performed) and after enjoying the fruit of their merit, then will come back to this world to dispose their karma resulting from the demerit which they earned and again to work out their own salvation. This is called pravarti marg which means natural or progressive mukti (stage by stage). Whereas nivrtimarg is possible while still living in this world in human body. By renouncing everything (karma, wealth and progeny) one could attain salvation immediately.
Of course all these are only in theory, however both the margas are still practiced by Hindus. But this theory is graphically illustrated, interpreted and explained by each sect according to their belief and Puranas talk about the travel of the soul to various worlds. For those who die in pitruyana proper shanti (appeasement or ward of the negative influence) to make sure that the soul goes to heaven without any hurdle by the son(s) of the deceased person. Still you can hear and see thousands and millions of people going to Gaya, Allahabad (sangam) and other holy places to do sradha (annual rites) for their departed parents and relative to make sure that any lapse from their side is compensated.
So when your friends discuss about the soul going to the world of any star it is the part of this above theory.
Notes
1. …even the Rgveda was well aware of both Devayana and Pitryana. Most men would go to pitrloka presided over by Yama according to the Rg. and only the blessed would go by the Devayana to the world of gods….—P.V. Kane, History of Dharmasastras, Vol. V, Part II, p.1545
Br.Up.IV.4.5-7; IV.5.7; VI.2.9-13,15-16; Ch.Up.V.3.2,6; V.10.2-9;—The above Upanisad passages are enough to show how the doctrine of transmigration was being moulded in the Upanisad period. The Rgveda knows the two paths of Devayana and Pitryana and also that in heaven there were joys and delights but the Rgveda does not say how long the joys of Heaven were to last and makes no clear and definite statement on the doctrine of transmigration. In the Brahmana period the two paths were often referred to and the conception had dawned upon the minds of thinkers that man might have to pass through death several times (punarmrtya). But even then there is hardly any definite theory of punarjanma based on good or bad deeds. the clearest statements (and probably earlies) of the origin of the doctrine of transmigration are the two passages {Br.Up. III.3.13 and IV.4.5-7}…In both these passages the Devayana and Pitryana paths are not mentioned at all. But the Br.Up.VI.2.16 and Chan.Up.V.10 relate the two paths to transmigration and speak of a third place for those born as worms and flies. This is an addition to the doctrine of the two paths, but they make a further departure….—ibid. p.1551
2. The Br.Up.VI.2.15-16 and Chan.V.3.10 ff. deal with the question of those who go by Devayana and by the Pitryana paths. First the Br.Up. `Those [even householders] who know this (Pancagnividya) and also those [hermist and ascetics] who, in the forest being full of faith, worship Truth (Brahman, Hiranyagarbha) go to arcis (light), from arcis to day (ahan) from day to the increasing fortnight (i.e.sukla-paksa), from the increasing half to the six months during which the Sun moves in the north, from those six months to the world of the Devas (Devaloka), from the Devaloka to the sun, from the sun to lightning. When they have reached the place of lightning a person born of the mind (of Brahma) comes to them and leads them to the worlds of Brahma. In these worlds they being exalted, dwell for ages and there is no return (to samsara) for them. But they who conquer (attain) worlds by sacrifice, charity and austerities go to smoke, from smoke to night, from night to decreasing half (of the mounth), from decreasing half month to the six months during which the sun moves in the south, from these months to the world of the fathers, from the world of the fathers to the Moon, having reached the Moon, they become food and then the Devas feed on them there as sacrificers feed on king Soma as it increases and decreases (in a sacrifices). But when this (the result of their works done on earth) is exhaused they return to ether (akasa), from that to Vayu, from Vayu to rain, from rain to the earth; on reaching the earth they become food. They are then again offered into the fire called man, from that (i.e. man) they are born in the fire called woman. These, making efforts to secure worlds (by sacrifices etc), again and again repeat coming to this world. Those, however, who do not know both these paths, they become (are born as) worms, locusts (or birds) and flies’. {also vide GitaVIII.23-27, Santiparva. 26.8-10}—ibid. pp.1555-56
3.3 millions of gods and idol.
In Hinduism when any importance needs to be given then it is exaggerated or great number of given. For example when they talk about the total numbers of all the yugas, they talk about 432, 000000 years. […the number of human years in the four yugas [krta, treta, dvapara and kali] … is 4,320,000 … 1000 of these four yugas constitute a day of Brahma, which is called kalpa.—Kane, Vol. III, p. 891]. When they talk about time it is eternal and immeasurable. Regarding taking birth it is countless. So to explain its magnitude a huge number is used, but we should not take it literarily. For example Rama’s father King Dhasaratha lived 10,000 years and married that much wives in order to escape from the vow of Parasurama to kill all the Kshatriyas (where newly married one is exempted and hence Dhasaratha married each year). Similar way when 3.3 millions of gods are mentioned or talked about, we need not take it literarily. At the same time considering the various forms of worship (not only idols, but mere stones, tress, ancestors, bushes, ant-hills etc.) the number would go even further.
It is a great fun to relate everything in the bible to some event in the world. Idol worship is not a new thing in the bible and the people of OT need not borrow it from India. God called Abram (not Abraham) from the background of Idol worship. So we need not relate everything with the bible.
Not only RSS but all the sophisticated Hindus and even several Puranas and people like Kabirdas and other reformers condemned idol worship. It is always considered as the low grade of worship or the first step in realizing God through sadhana. Once one gets maturity, she can remove it and go further in her sadhana. The following from my book (forth coming) might me to explain it further:
Regarding murtipuja, it is beyond the scope of this book to go into the details of the entire for and against discussion. Though this controversy is not new to Hinduism, since the Renaissance of the past two centuries idol worship has been a focal point for debate among the Hindu reformers as also between Hindus and Christian missionaries. Though the traditional discussion on this point was either for or against it – between orthodox sects and reformers like the Tamil Siddhas, Kabir Sahab and Guru Nanak, in modern times both sides try to give scientific reasons along with intellectual, rationalistic explanations for their respective points of view.
Common people, however, continue in their faith as before, most of these discussions remaining in elite intellectual circles.
Though an average Hindu is very orthodox when it comes to his faith, he will be a liberal when he tries to explain it. When it comes to the point of defense he has only one word of explanation, which is “FAITH”. Especially regarding “murtipuja”, the ordinary Hindu has faith in it (though he knows that it is not the substance but the meaning behind it that is important).26 To a typical Hindu the moment you give a name and form to God, with or without a symbol, it itself is an “idol”.27 That is why when some Christians (particularly Roman Catholics), however sympathetic they may be in their understanding of Hindu “idol” worship, try to differentiate their “veneration” of “icons” of Mary, Jesus and other saints from Hindu “idol” worship, Hindus can see nothing but sectarian prejudice.28
If a small piece of bread or wafer after consecration becomes “the very Person of God”, for Roman Catholic Christians, a piece of stone or wood after “Pranapratistha”29 becomes very God for a Hindu. But a Hindu will happily throw away that piece of wood or stone after it has served its purpose, whereas a Catholic has to cling to that wafer or bread till the end. I have seen some Catholic priests falling down to worship the consecrated bread or wafer, calling it as the very body of Jesus. Protestant Christians do not accept this theory of transubstantiation, but the Protestant Christians who condemn murtipuja of a Hindu should remember that the Bible also talks about Jesus, “as the image (icon) of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15). Regarding Muslim criticism of Hindu idol worship, turning towards the west to worship, kissing a stone (at Mecca, that too by several million people) and the ritual stoning of Satan are all, in the eyes of Hindus, nothing but idol worship.
Without a symbol (pratika)30 the common man cannot comprehend, apprehend or express any objective ideals. The moment meaning is understood, the need for the symbol can be set aside.31 A typical Hindu never thinks that all the non-Hindus who condemn his “idol” worship have transcended the need for every symbol in their own religious expressions. That is why he is sympathetic to them even when they think that he is in the kindergarten school in his spirituality in his relationship with his symbols. Of course, a kindergarten school faith is more important than all kinds of intellectual explanations of spirituality. Note that Hinduism equally condemns idol worship32, even while also upholding it. Two such contradictory positions can co-exist without any confusion in Hinduism since it gives freedom for all kinds of faith expressions. The following story told by Nirad Chaudhuri reflects a typical Hindu mind:
I shall give an example of this from an old Bengali poem written around 1750, in which the poet sets forth an argument between the Mogul Emperor Jehangir and a Bengali Brahmin to prove the superiority of Hinduism.
The Emperor says that Hindus make idols of clay, wood, and stone and, by infusing life into these by means of spells, only worship evil spirits. He asks: “Who can save a people who give life to things made by man and what can be the future life of those who put vermilion on trees and pitchers and call these goddesses”?
The Brahmin replies: “Clay, wood, or stone, all things movable or immovable contain God according to the Puranas as well as the Quran. He who makes images of Him with these only makes the intangible God tangible. He who contemplates only the intangible without the help of the tangible drops the gold and only ties an empty knot in his scarf”.33
Though an idol may be called a pratika or symbol, in fact it can neither can represent God nor interpret Him. Though a symbol can help us to visualise the invisible, still how far it can do this regarding God is questionable. Though the concept of arcavatara in which after proper consecration the very spirit of God indwells in an idol is familiar among the Vaishnavites, yet it can in no sense limit the unfathomable form of God. So then what is an idol? In my opinion an idol expresses our limitation of understanding God who is beyond our human comprehension. Idol as a symbol neither expresses nor interprets God. It is a symbol of our limitation. And those who try to worship God through an idol only try to communicate their limitation. Though it is a good way to express and accept our limitation, yet it is not necessary either to understand or express that limitation, because it may directly or indirectly restrict our efforts to understand God in our spirit beyond all human limitations.
Notes
26. The best rationalistic defense I have seen against any attack on idolatry is by Gora in Tagore’s novel of that name:
I only want to tell you that the object you are dismissing as a mere idol cannot really be understood by looking at it physically. Whether it is golden or earthen, finite or infinite, is known only by the person whose mind has settle on it, whose heart has been satisfied by it, whose nature has found refuge in it. Take it from me—no true devotee in our country worships the finite. Only by losing all limits does devotion fulfill itself.…worship of form and idolatry are the same thing, or that worship of idols is not the final evolution of devotional piety. In art, in literature, even in science or in historical study, there is room for imaginative perception—therefore I cannot accept there is no place for it in religious belief. All the inclinations of man find their supreme manifestation in religious belief. In our country, there has been an effort through idol worship to harmonize knowledge and devotion with imaginative grasp. Hasn’t that made religious belief more completely real to our people than it is to people of other countries?—Gora, op. cit.pp.374-75 & 391.
27. Cf. Kane: “But even image worshippers are quite conscious that god is pure conscious-ness (cit), is one without a second, is without parts and without a physical body, and that the various images in which he is thought as in-dwelling are so imagined for the benefit of worshippers”. –Ibid. vol. II, part II. pp.896-97. One example from Siva Purana:
Lord Siva is within the heart of beings in this world. Of what avail are the idols to those who have this real knowledge? Having an idol is very auspicious for a person who has no such knowledge. It is a ladder that enables him to climb to a higher position…. The idol is only a means to achieve the nirguna Siva…Till the realisation of true knowledge, the idol shall necessarily be worshipped….— J. L. Shastri, op. cit. Rudrasamhita, Section I, 12:62, 63, 64, 65 & 67, p.229
28. Lipner wants the word idol to be abandoned by all, saying “idol” is, “not to be understood in the sense used by orthodox Christianity. Hindus themselves, alas, often blithely use the word ‘idol’ to refer to their sacred images. But they should realise that the term is so fraught with tendentious Western associations as to be quite unsuitable”.—Lipner, Hindus… op. cit. p. 351.
29. See Kane, vol. II, part II, pp.896-900 on the pranapratistha ceremony that “enlivens” a murti.
30. B. G. Tilak explains the concept of pratika:
The Name-d and Form-ed object necessary for purposes of worship as the symbol, sign, incarnation, particle, or representation of the worshipped Parabrahman, is known in Vedanta philosophy as a “pratika”. The etymological meaning of “pratika” is prati + ika, that is, “one, who is turned, towards (prati) ourselves”; and that side or portion of any particular object, which, first becomes perceptible to us, and whereby we subsequently obtain a knowledge of it, is called “pratika”.—op. cit. p. 580.
Regarding the misuse of symbols, which could become idolatry, Fleming says:
Again, all of us, unless we are spiritually awake, tend to see the sculptured or painted form, and not the particular state of mind that the symbol was meant to inspire. In a dull mood we are likely to miss the idea, the spirit, or the sentiment, and experience only the visible. There is a real danger, therefore, that for certain
backward peoples the physically tangible symbol may take the place of the thing signified. In that case the symbol becomes a fetish or idol. From this point of view idolatry may be defined as the misuse of symbols.- Daniel Johnson Fleming, Christian Symbols,In A World Community, New York, 1940, p. 30.
31. Cf. Panikkar, “The sacred character of a thing, we note, resides always in its function and not in its substance. For example, the murtis, the idols worshipped during popular festivals, are afterwards often immersed in the rivers or simply laid aside”.— The Vedic…, op. cit. p. 369.
32. Cf. P. Fallon:
Many others go even further and say that images of wood or metal and statues of any kind are only for the spiritually uneducated, the “alpabuddhi” or “murkha”; a man with true spiritual insight finds God in his heart, in his soul
kaastha-lostesu muurkhaanaam, yuktasya aatmani devataa.
–In wood or clay God is seen by the foolish ones In the Atman by those, who are one with Him. [no reference is given]—
ruupam ruupa-vivarjitasya bhavato dhyaanena yat-kalpitam, stutyaa
(a)-nirvacaniiyataa (a)-khilaguro duriikrtaa yan-mayaa;
vyaapitvam-ca niraakrtam bhagavato yat tiirtha-yatraadinaa,
kantavyam, jagadisha, tad vikalataa-dosa-trayam matkrtam.
–Forgive, O Supreme Ruler of the world, three faults which I have committed due to my weakness; meditating upon Thee, O Formless One, I fancied Thee under various shapes and forms; when praising Thee, O Lord of the universe, I have done away with Thine ineffableness; while journeying to sacred places, O Lord, I forgot thine omnipresence. P. Fallon, “God in Hinduism: Brahman, Paramatman, Ishvara and Bhagavan” in De Smet and J. Neuner (eds.), op. cit.pp.110-11.
33. Nirad C. Chaudhuri, Hinduism…, op. cit. pp. 91-92.
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I had the most interesting conversation today with 2 long time friends who are both Brahmans, one from Kerala and the other from Hyderabad. We went out to eat and the discussion turned to why Brahmans are not allowed to eat onions and garlic. I had never heard this one before, so I wanted to know the details. Murali told me that it went back to Ayurvedic medicine who studied them and said that they invoke passions and emotions and therefore are not good to eat.
Then we went on to why cows were holy as Rajiv wanted to hear what Murali was told about it. I told them I had always heard it was because Krishna had drunk from a cow’s utters and therefore cow’s were holy. Murali said it went way back before that and it was because the mother cow provided milk for family and tilted the ground. The story of Krishna was created to help illiterate people to remember why cows are to be treated as holy. Rajiv and I thought this was way to logical to be the real reason.
We then detriorated to talk about how Brahmins were to blame for not telling lower castes the real reasons behind myths and they allowed idols to be worshipped. They withheld the truth for money instead of explaining such logical truths from the ancient past. We talked about how the ancients believed in a single god and never intended to worship idols.
I wish I had a audio recording as I am not doing the discussion justice. I was happy just by the fact that they were talking about religion as I don’t hear it much among high tech workers. I told them I would talk to and find out what you thought about these things!
Rick Evans
Dear Rick Evans,
Shanti!
Thanks for sharing your dialogue with your friends. The following is my response:
This is true that medical reason eating garlic and onion is restricted, but not completely prohibited. However, not eating garlic and onion is also related with ritual purity. In general, not all the brahmins are denied eating garlic and onion, but those involved with puja, rituals, yajnas etc. Strictly, a sannyasi is prohibited from any kind of masalas, including that of onion and garlic, which is considered, belongs to rajas (vigor) kind of food.
–Murali was right. As cow was venerated in vedic time as the provider of food for humankind, it was considered holy. Almost all the product of the cow was in use. From milk was made curd, ghee; cow dung was used both for manure and as fuel; as bull is used to plough the field, the calf of a cow, whether it is a cow or bull is considered very valuable even today. It is interesting to note that while she buffalo is considered valuable, in most parts of India, he buffalo is worth nothing. That is why, among all the cattle, cow is venerated even as mother.
It is too simplistic to blame the Brahmins as if they deliberately with held some kind of truth. In the process of assimilation and accommodation (inculturalisation), they allowed other caste group to retain their particular faith, rituals and worldview. Most of the scriptures were written by the Brahmins, for the Brahmins in which they mostly addressed their spiritual, social and cultural need and in their relationship with others. Therefore, their intention was not to convert others to their form of faith, but survival considering their minority nature. However, their authority as the priest in general and prohit (household priest) over other caste group, gave them some advantage to exercise their supremacy through ritual (control). That is why though they were minority among the caste group, managed to dominate them for a long time. All their logic truths are for them to contemplate and persuade the truth within their varnashramadharma (caste-stage-duties) system. It is too much to say that because of monetary motivation they withheld the truth. Most of the temple priests are called as ‘sivacharyas’ who attained that position through vertical mobility in caste hierarchy. Though they later were included in the Brahmin varna, strictly speaking they were not part of their philosophical system. Of course, not all these ever happened suddenly or systematically. However, over the period, slow process of evolution of various processes led to this kind of assimilation. However, a true idealism of Brahmins was renunciation and not accumulation and they never remained as the custodian of religion, particularly that of temple for monetary gain:
…They [Princes, landed and commercial aristocracy(Brahmins could belong to it)] made gifts of money and goods to the priests on all ceremonial occasions, bestowed rent-free land on them, and also provided regular salaried employment to the lower priests for the performance of all routine worship and rites in their homes.
They were in a figurative sense the owners of the religion, which the Brahmins were not….— Nirad C. Chaudhuri, Hinduism a religion to live by, Delhi, Oxford University Press, (1979), 1996, p.139
Regarding the so-called belief that all the ancient believed in one god and never worshiped idol in Hinduism is too simplistic way to define Hinduism. As various religious trends were assimilated under one umbrella of Hinduism, there was room for every form of faith. We can safely say that temple form of worship was later introduced or evolved gradually, whereas idol worship in both in icon and anincon form was common in ancient time also. Read the following points:
…Vedic religion consisted primarily of domestic and kingly sacrificial rites centered around the sacred fire. The fire was both a focus and a vehicle of ritual activity. The construction of the Vedic fire altar was the symbolic (p.32) construction of the “image” of the primordial creator, Prajapati, and therefore was also the symbolic construction of the world, which emerged from Prajapati. The fire has continued to be utilized as an aniconic image of the divine, and it has a central place in many Hindu rites. Although in the Vedic period there is virtually no evidence t indicate the use of iconic images in worship, it is important to note that the Vedic poets were image-makers in another sense: they created vivid images of the gods in their poetry. There was the Sun, the witness of the world with heavenly eye’ Agni, with seven red tongues, seven faces, and gleaming hair; and Indra, the warrior, who carried the thunderbolt.— Diana L. Eck, Darsan, Seeing the Divine Image in INDIA, Second Revised and Enlarged Edition, 1996, pp.32-33
Just as the term icon conveys the sense of a “likeness,” so do the Sanskrit words pratikrti and pratimaa suggest the “likeness” of the image to the deity it presents. The common word for such images, however, is muurti, which is defined in Sanskrit as “anything which has definite shape and limits,” “ a form, body, figure,” “an embodiment, incarnation, manifestation,” Thus the muurti is more than a likeness; it is the deity itself taken “form.”
The uses of the word muurti in the Upanisads and the Bhagavad Gita suggest that the form is its essence. The flame is the muurti of fire (Svetasvatara Upanisad 1.13), or the year is the muurti of time (Maitri Upanisad 6.14). When the formless waters of creation were brooded upon by the creator, form (muurti) emerged (Aitareya Upanisad 3.2). It is from (murti) which takes shape in the womb of the unfathomable Brahman who gives birth to all forms (Bhagavad Gita 14.3-4). While the word muurti does not commonly mean the icon of a deity in this early period, it is significant that the term itself suggests the congealing of form and limit from that larger reality which has no form or limit. However, the muurti is a body-taking, a manifestation, and is not different from the reality itself.—ibid. p.38
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Swamiji,
I think you would be interested in reading this magazine. I know Jim personally since he was in Chennai for nearly a year 5-6 years back. You can subscribe to his newsletter.
Regards,
Pravin
Thanks Pravin for giving this information. I read the documents that you sent along with this mail. But I don’t know how to go and register through internet. Of course, even after following the instruction, sometime it confuses me.
Above all the experience which this letter shares is limited to Western context. Though human needs, feelings etc. are the same everywhere, yet the way we Indian response to them are bit different from the west. Though I will be interested to read them also, at present neither my health nor my time permits me to enjoy that much luxury. Thanks.
db
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Subject: Idealab — Ex-Christian Remembers Evangelism
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| May 2006 | In this issue… Ex-Christian Remembers Evangelism Karen is an ex Christian and a poster on our atheist blog. Recently “Ir” an atheist led the discussion and asked us to respond to Karen’s questions about evangelism. You can jump into the original conversation and post your comments and questions. Why Won’t Anyone Take My Survey? Meagan is a senior in college. In August she will receive a BS in Interior Design with a minor in Art. She loves Christ and getting to know him better. She also enjoys being challenged by ideas and then talking and thinking them through with others. She sent Off The Map this report of a recent adventure doing “spiritual surveys”. The Loop We aren’t called Off The Map for nothing. We like to help people travel to new places in their spiritual imagination. Here are some comments we found in the discussion group of the article by Pastor Bill Yaccino on Missional Marriages in last months Idealab. Ex-Christian Remembers Evangelism By Karen Karen is an ex Christian and a poster on our atheist blog. Recently “Ir” an atheist led the discussion and asked us to respond to Karen’s questions about evangelism. You can jump into the original conversation and post your comments and questions. When I was an evangelical Christian, I was routinely taught to do pretty much anything necessary in order to “bring someone to Christ.” The idea was that the pit of hell was looming wide, so it was permissible to use many tactics that might be judged unethical in other contexts, in order to get a person saved. This included inviting them to church for a “neutral” service (such as a holiday pageant) that was really planned as an evangelistic event, complete with altar call. I consider that a fairly inoffensive example (though still troubling), but there was also much worse going on, including things that contributed to my leaving Christianity and religion in general. As an example, some friends and I have been chuckling over this evangelism video by actor Kirk Cameron . Not only is it incredibly ignorant (and unintentionally hilarious), but it is also blatantly deceptive, and teaches Christians to be deceptive in witnessing. (The Darwin quote is discussed here) I’d be curious as to whether believers on this site have also been taught that the end justifies the means when it comes to saving souls? If so, does it bother you at all, do you reject it, or do you find it acceptable? read more>>> Why Won’t Anyone Take My Survey? By Meagan Tevebaugh Meagan is a senior in college. In August she will receive a BS in Interior Design with a minor in Art. She loves Christ and getting to know him better. She also enjoys being challenged by ideas and then talking and thinking them through with others. She sent Off The Map this report of a recent adventure doing “spiritual surveys”. There are no long lines when groups offer surveys because no one really wants to take one! Think about it: a complete stranger asking you questions on a random topic – and in trade you’re compelled to listen to their pitch. Most of us have better ways to waste our time. I realized how unattractive surveys were while at Portland State University several weeks ago. Each spring my Student Ministries team sends missions teams to various areas in the country for service projects and evangelism. I’m not sure what reasons brought me to Portland, but I know I felt a specific call to the Northwest. Before flying into Portland, we knew that the student ministry at PSU wanted us on campus, engaging the students in surveys. There were six questions on the survey: What kind of spiritual beliefs do you have? How do you practice your spiritual beliefs? What do you believe about Jesus? Are you involved in any organizations on campus? Are you familiar with any Christian organizations on campus? How could a Christian organization help you? We were told that the survey could lead to deeper conversations, but not always. Either way, the Northwest Collegiate Ministry that we partnered with wanted the survey answers to get a feel for the “spiritual temperature” of the campus. read more>>> The Loop We aren’t called Off The Map for nothing. We like to help people travel to new places in their spiritual imagination. Here are some comments we found in the discussion group of the article by Pastor Bill Yaccino on Missional Marriages in last months Idealab. Happy to be out of the Christian Subculture When I was 16 I knew inside I needed something more than myself. My only friend who went to church happened to be catholic. After thought I went to her priest and asked about becoming a catholic. We spoke for a few minutes and he left me with this final word – “If you want to receive instruction to become a catholic that’s fine; just go home and think it over, we’ve got enough bad catholics, we don’t need more.” I went home, thought it over and never went back. By the time I was 18 I planned my suicide because I was in despair and couldn’t find a reason to keep on living. I was in so much emotional pain. If a stranger on a crisis-line hadn’t heard my cry and steered me to a christian youth organization I wouldn’t be writing this..I’d be long dead and decayed. “You never get a second chance to make a good first impression”(I don’t know who said this first). I’m not writing this to bash catholic priests or try to lay a heavy guilt trip on anyone. It’s just that we can’t know how urgently a stranger might need our compassionate expression of the love and life of Christ. In my own life, after a while of being a believer – several decades – I got into a subsculture mentality. All Christian, all the time, music, dress, movies, friends etc. I began to look at pre-christians as the enemy almost. Those who might “corrupt” my kids and threaten all I held dear. Thankfully God has broken that down and rescued me from taking the great adventure of faith and turning it into the broken-down, merry-go-round of churchianity. For many years my fear made me very small-minded and legalistic. I was so afraid of being wrong. God has been so good and patient with me. Now I look for any opportunity to do some small good for anyone God will bring across my path. I finally see it as the great joy of being a part of God’s plan You are helping them on their way to Hell To go ahead and marry them gets them happy but does not help them realize their danger before God. Like many people, they might merrily go to hell with a few “Christian ministers” helping them along the way. I do not mean we should shun them altogether, but lovingly tell them what their great need is. Also, people must realize that to marry only in civil courts is not “sinful” in itself. the only reason Christians have a ceremony is for the fact they see their need for God’s blessing is essential and they realize their vow is mostly before God as their witness, and all this is proper in a a church gathering. read more>>> Having Problems Receiving Off The Map E-mails? To make sure our e-mails are delivered to your inbox (not to bulk or junk mail folders), please add idealab@off-the-map.org to your Address Book or Safe Senders List. Click here for more information. If you no longer wish to receive Off The Map Idealab, simply click here: unsubscribe emailpravinthorat@rediffmail.com © 2005 Off The Map, Jim Henderson, Publisher Off The Map 17712 15th NE Shoreline, WA 98155 206.440.3380 |
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